Developer and Investor Kwesi Bourne takes us through the ups and downs of his latest development project.
A little more about our guest:
Kwesi L Bourne is the owner and operator of klb investment realty, advisory (klb investing). A Real Estate Investment firm that assists Real Estate Investors in the Acquisition and Sale of Commercial and Investment Real Estate. We also work with clients in JV opportunities for the Purchase and Development of Commercial property.
Brokerage Sales service are offered through Synercapital Investment Realty, Brokerage, where Kwesi is a fully licenced bilingual Real Estate Broker and formally the Broker of Record of Synercapital (2019 – 2022). Kwesi has been recognized in the marketplace for the past 10+ years as a well connected commercial broker. Although he is well versed in all aspects of Real Estate he is well respected as Commercial Broker across many Ontario Markets. Over his career he has been involved in smaller plex sales under $500,000 to large portfolio sales worth upwards of $20,000,000.
The Brokerage office is based in the Nation’s Capital and the klb investing team office in Rockland, Ontario. He has had the privilege of working with private and family business’, investor syndication groups as well as large land developers and institutional investors, and has handled transactions in Toronto, Pembroke, Arnprior, Rockland and all other areas of the Greater Ottawa Area.
Kwesi may be reached for questions and comments at:
📱Direct line: 613-883-3366
✉️Email: kbourne@klbinvesting.ca
🌐Web: klbinvesting.ca
📍Rockland Address: 634 Laurier St. Rockland, ON K4K 1E7
📍Brokerage Address: 1376 Bank St. Ottawa, ON K1H 7Y3
Intro voice
Welcome to the Property Wizard, brought to you by Creative Insight, helping you connect and gentry learning real estate professionals and educators. If you are brand new to the real estate investment world or have limited experience, you've come to the right place. Fred Crouch has over 35 years of real estate investing experience. He's seen it all and he's ready to share it with you.
00;00;26;13 - 00;00;37;15
Intro voice
This podcast takes an inside look at investing in real estate, what to look for, and most of all, how to move forward. Please welcome the property wizard, Fred Crouch.
00;00;37;17 - 00;01;05;03
Fred
Hi Wizards. Welcome back. Welcome to season five of the Property Wizard. A big thank you to the team at Curl Speaks. Headed up by than Mr. podcast himself Karl Richards. We would especially like to acknowledge and thank our producer Dom Carillo and supporting this awesome duo or Nathan Simon who created the original sound score, and Caroline Nikolai, who every episode supplies us with new cover artwork.
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Fred
Thank you everyone for your wonderful effort. McCain. So it's been a little while. Wizards. Let's start off recapping the previous podcast episode. When we discussed real estate fraud. And there were a number of points that were made. Do you have any initial comments or thoughts on that episode?
00;01;23;05 - 00;01;47;23
Bernie
Bernie branded something that you feel is had been prevalent over the last year, and people come up with the it's too good to be true. Return on rate. You know, and usually if it is, that's exactly what it is. It's a hot air and it's your money leaving your pocket. Legal advice is always key. You know, not not going to the lawyer before you start putting, ink to paper and, title transfer.
00;01;47;24 - 00;01;54;17
Bernie
Yeah, that's the other thing. You know, we we heard that there's several different ways to transfer your title. And, you know, they say, you know, gone.
00;01;54;20 - 00;01;59;24
Fred
Yeah. I think we finished up that episode with, it was with Mark. Correct.
00;01;59;26 - 00;02;00;24
Bernie
Mark. Yes.
00;02;00;25 - 00;02;19;23
Fred
And that was the second time on the show, I believe we kind of finished up with half a dozen points, and I'll go over them now. But things that for all our listeners out there, you should really pay heed to. So the first thing that we came up, if it sounds too good to be true, then it probably is.
00;02;19;25 - 00;02;51;11
Fred
The second thing was do not succumb to high pressure sales tactics. And that was a really important point too, because you very often get this. There's always this built in urgency that someone pitching the idea kind of builds into it. The next point that I want to make, the thing that I'm really, really insistent on, and not all promoters and developers feel the same way, but I'm of the opinion that if you can't see or touch it, then stay away from it.
00;02;51;14 - 00;03;16;10
Fred
Really. You want to be able to drive by your investment, actually touch the mortar and bricks. You want to see where your money's going. Because so many people and we touched on it just briefly, we were talking about mortgage fraud. Right, Bernie? And one of the things that a lot of people do is they throw their money into these pools that are promoted by individuals that are trying to raise funds for a construction project.
00;03;16;12 - 00;03;37;03
Fred
And what ends up happening a lot of the time, I mean, what the the picture is saying, you know, it's backed by a mortgage, is backed on a mortgage on a property. So the investor, particularly if he's a novice investor, is thinking, well, gee, I mean, like, what's the risk? It's secured. It's secured by a mortgage like real property.
00;03;37;06 - 00;04;01;18
Fred
The problem is, is that when those projects and a lot of them do fall apart and crumble, what you realize very quickly is, yes, yes, absolutely. It's backed by a mortgage on a property. But what they don't realize it's not a first mortgage, it's not a second mortgage. But it could be a third, fourth, fifth, sixth mortgage. And what's happened is that the promoter has gone out raising funds.
00;04;01;21 - 00;04;31;19
Fred
And every time a block of funds is created, they secure, they secure it as a mortgage on a property. Now, without revisiting our entire episode on power sales, which we're going to do with the future guest. And then I think in a couple of weeks, if I'm not mistaken, the only thing that differentiates a first mortgage from a second mortgage, from a third mortgage, and ad nauseum, is the time at which the lean was registered.
00;04;31;22 - 00;04;49;25
Fred
That's it. And I'm not going to get into post moment clauses. I'm not going to get into a whole lot of legal fees. And a lot of our listeners may not appreciate or understand. But at the end of the day, if you register a mortgage at 1:00 and there's no other mortgage on the property, that's a first mortgage.
00;04;49;27 - 00;05;08;17
Fred
If you register another mortgage at 2:00 could be the same day, but it's not a first mortgage, the second mortgage, and it keeps on going that way. So if there is a default, guess who has priority over all other charges? Bernie, can you take a guess.
00;05;08;19 - 00;05;12;08
Bernie
Who I think the first person that, is owed the money.
00;05;12;10 - 00;05;40;13
Fred
The first mortgage. If there's any money left over that, then the second mortgage may get a piece of what the realized funds are. So that's very, very important. Okay. The fourth point was stay away from unsolicited real estate offers like stay away from them like you need to at all times. Be aware of who is making the offering and where the offering is coming from.
00;05;40;15 - 00;06;05;16
Fred
So stay away from unsolicited real estate offers. Someone giving you a call on the phone and saying, hey, today's your lucky day. I can guarantee you 16% over the next six months. No no, no, the red flags should be going up and you should head for the door. The absolute minimum hang up the phone. The fifth point is read the fine print of any offering, like read it.
00;06;05;18 - 00;06;41;29
Fred
If it's, a syndication or a code tenancy. There's nothing wrong with those forms of investment. But read the fine print. And better yet, particularly if you're a novice investor, have a solicitor or a lawyer. Review the document. Any syndicator, any manager of a co tenancy will absolutely, without question, give you a copy of the agreement beforehand and, more importantly, encourage you to go get independent legal advice.
00;06;42;01 - 00;07;08;29
Fred
Or in a in the business. That's what it's referred to. You'll hear that term tossed around. It just means independent legal advice. It should be encouraged. The points in the contents of the agreement should be discussed. You never know. I mean the co tenancy agreement that we use at our firm has gone through a dozen different heads. There have been adjustments made when they were warranted.
00;07;09;02 - 00;07;42;18
Fred
Everything is up for discussion. But more importantly, at the end of the day, particularly after a length of time, what you have is a highly refined document that will hold up regardless of the situation. So very, very important. The last thing that I'd like to bring to our listeners attention is that you should know both the person making the offering and the people you're going to be involved with, that doesn't mean that you have to have them over 4 or 5:00 Scotch, or in Bernie's case, at 10:00.
00;07;42;25 - 00;08;15;13
Fred
It doesn't work or even have coffee with them, but know who they are. Usually when we do a code tenancy or any type of put a group of investors together, well, at least have a breakfast or a lunch. And just so people can see the other people and toss around ideas, because you may be involved in this particular venture, but there's nothing stopping one, 2 or 3 of you from branching out and getting involved in another real estate related venture.
00;08;15;15 - 00;08;38;01
Fred
Because co tenancies aren't a unit that well, they can purchase property as the same group over and over again. I've had one in particular that's probably on their fifth or sixth investment property, but they don't have to be made up with the same folks. So get to know your other investors socially. I'm not saying you have to become their best friends.
00;08;38;07 - 00;09;16;23
Fred
I'm not suggesting you got to take their dog for a walk. Nothing like that. But get to know them. And if you're a syndicator of any credibility, what you're going to want to do is you're going to want to make those social gatherings happen. It's good for cohesiveness. It's good even if you want to discuss a point or something, you know, maybe an opportunity very often will have or will set aside time when we've received if we have a particular project or a block of land, we'll set aside time to have a meeting, an impromptu meeting to discuss what everybody wants to do.
00;09;16;24 - 00;09;42;01
Fred
Then we want to sell this property to we want to develop it ourselves. It's also a great opportunity if one of the members of your Co tenancy wants to turn around and step back and say, I'm really good here, but I don't want to do that, that's all, okay, there's nothing wrong with that at all. So if you stick to these half a dozen points, I am of the belief that it's going to be very difficult for you to go wrong.
00;09;42;04 - 00;09;44;28
Fred
Anything for you to add burning at all?
00;09;45;01 - 00;10;01;14
Bernie
No, I think at the end of the day, the social aspect is good because you get to know that you know, the people. Like you said, it doesn't have to be down to the here be my, being the godparent to one of my kids. But if you get a sense of who they are, then there's community that support one.
00;10;01;16 - 00;10;19;09
Bernie
I think part two is also if there's a deal that's coming up and maybe it's a sweeter deal, that's what your lawyer is for, you know, that'll slow things down because the lawyers will take the right time. It's not emotional. Emotionally driven for the lawyer. Right. It's a lawyer. Will check out the the provenance and the connections.
00;10;19;15 - 00;10;24;28
Bernie
It's not an absolute. And then you have your accountant, so, you know, does everybody know everybody even if you don't know them?
00;10;25;00 - 00;10;43;18
Fred
Yeah. Use your teams. Communicate. Well, how many times have we spoken about your team, not just as an individual investor, but as a group? Know your team, have trusted advisors. Don't be afraid to ask questions. And really, who the a lot of these questions should be pointed to? Is it the individual that's managing either the Co tendency or the syndicator?
00;10;43;20 - 00;11;11;18
Fred
Don't be afraid to ask questions and you know there's an issue. If all of a sudden they're barking or you're not getting the answer to your hard ask questions. So that's at the end of the day it's really really important. Be informed. Look at real estate is by far the number one and the best way to create wealth, both individually and, you know, legacy wealth or generational wealth by all means.
00;11;11;18 - 00;11;34;27
Fred
I mean, we don't have to revisit we revisit every podcast, but it is for sure. But be educated, turn around and ask the questions and find those members of your team that fill those gaps in knowledge that maybe you don't possess. I've been at this for a long time, and every once in a while somebody will throw me a curve and I'm usually pretty good.
00;11;34;29 - 00;11;58;27
Fred
But if I'm starting to second guess myself or I'm not quite 100% sure, particularly, for instance, when it comes to investing in the US, I've got a pretty good knowledge of it and we've done it. But if there's a very specific question that somebody is asking, I can always reach out to a tax expert, whether domestically or in the States, we can make those connections and make those queries.
00;11;58;27 - 00;12;08;21
Fred
And that's exactly what you should be doing. So that's a great, recap, Bernie. So brilliant. What's next?
00;12;08;23 - 00;12;32;16
Bernie
Well, I think we have something in the mailbag, for you there, Fred. It's Sue from Colonna. She had to drop you a note to let you know that your podcast episode on real estate fraud was fantastic, and her whole office was listening to it. And have there have any other real estate fraud related episodes coming up to anything else coming up in the future about this area?
00;12;32;18 - 00;12;57;12
Fred
Yeah, it's a matter of fact. First of all, thank you very much for your, email. Sue. Our next scheduled podcast will deal with specific examples of real estate fraud and how to recognize that the real estate investment you're being pitched may not be everything you might expect. It'll be an important one there for all you wizards. I mean, it's very, very important to get a firm handle on this.
00;12;57;14 - 00;13;01;08
Fred
So thank you for writing in so perfect.
00;13;01;11 - 00;13;14;24
Bernie
And just, folks, if you're listening to this, if you have any questions, send your emails to info at gentry. Com that's info at g n t r y area star com. And of course if there are no problems.
00;13;14;26 - 00;13;17;29
Fred
There are no opportunities.
00;13;18;01 - 00;13;25;25
Intro voice
From the current events desk of the Property Wizard. It's news of the week.
00;13;25;28 - 00;14;02;10
Fred
Wizards. Today I want to talk about conversions. And these were conversions that were first thought of and introduced to the market during the pandemic when many institutions, government institutions and private institutions introduced working at home to their employees. Now, fortunately, the pandemic has now since passed us by. Knock on wood. And what we're still left with are buildings that are vacant, vacant and waiting for some repurposing.
00;14;02;12 - 00;14;32;24
Fred
So I really wanted to touch base on this, and at this stage I'd like to introduce, Kwesi Born. I've known Kwesi for years now. He's a highly respected real estate broker developer himself, but I think he can add to this conversation. So the title of the article that I'd like to kind of use as our template is Conversions and show suites help Western Canada's landlords handle office vacancies.
00;14;32;27 - 00;14;57;21
Fred
The original article was written by Howard Choi with the Business intelligence for BC publication. It's an online publication. So I was going over a number of different articles, and this one seemed to kind of touch based on a few things, and I thought, okay, because that was kind of all the rage from the investment standpoint. People were looking at buildings to convert.
00;14;57;24 - 00;15;27;02
Fred
People were primarily looking at larger government type buildings with floors, complete floors of vacant space that they can convert to residential. Now, we've brought this topic up time and time again over the past several years, and one of the things that I'd always thought about and I because every everyone would come back every time I opened the the mailbag, there'd be a question or a comment having to do with conversions.
00;15;27;02 - 00;16;02;27
Fred
That's the, you know, that's the way everybody's, you know, headed. But I always caution people that not all buildings are built in such a manner that you can easily convert in a lot of instances. I've maintained that it's cheaper to turn around and take the building down and build from scratch. I know that's incomprehensible to some of our listeners, but to those that are in tune with building costs and what it cost to build, you very quickly come to the realization that, hey, you're not going to get these buildings for nothing.
00;16;02;27 - 00;16;30;03
Fred
Number one. Number two, there's a cost to the whatever amount of demolition you're going to have to do. And then there's a cost related to the construction. And it's not necessarily clean new construction. It's construction based around adapting. It's like a renovation project. And those of us who have been developing and renovating, you come to the again, the same realization that renovation costs are much higher than new construction costs.
00;16;30;05 - 00;16;36;01
Fred
And why is that? Is it? Can you answer that question for our listeners? You know why.
00;16;36;03 - 00;16;53;00
Kwesi
It comes to renovation to a lot of your unknown? I think you look at you look at a project, you think it's this, and then all of a sudden we take that a ball, and now you have to go into this. And plus you got to bring out a new code, right? Like a lot of these old office buildings, they're built a certain way for from a certain they're like 80s buildings.
00;16;53;00 - 00;17;11;25
Kwesi
Typically, if you want to do it today, anything that's off has to be updated to today's code. You know. So and it and it can just snowball into oh well what's what's next. What's next. You can delay projects. You know you have to get new permits. I mean even with the site that we did go through this, I mean like so.
00;17;11;27 - 00;17;12;18
Fred
Exact like.
00;17;12;19 - 00;17;14;06
Kwesi
Crazy now and when it come to other, that's.
00;17;14;06 - 00;17;36;03
Fred
Exactly it. The key word is un known. Like you just don't know you're getting into look at any architect. Any contractor with a modicum of experience can sit down and give you a rough guesstimate as to what it's going to cost to do a, b, c, d, e. I mean, that's what a general contractor does. That's what architects do.
00;17;36;06 - 00;18;06;17
Fred
That's what even tradespeople, that's what they do. But the problem happens with exactly what Kwesi said. When you're dealing with unknown factors. So I'm down in LA a couple of weeks ago, I make some queries. I'm talking to some people that are really have a lot of commercial real estate experience, and I pose that question to them and they throw back at me exactly what we just discussed exactly.
00;18;06;20 - 00;18;38;12
Fred
You know, there's been some starts and stops and talk about different counties, giving allowances to, builders to renovate some of these buildings, which I thought, okay, genius. Great. Wonderful. That's a good idea. I came back up to Canada. I did a little more research myself and very quickly realized that it's not so common in in central and eastern Canada, but in the western provinces, a lot of municipalities have tried to do just that.
00;18;38;15 - 00;18;51;29
Fred
Exactly that. What they do is they will supply a builder with a certain amount of money per square foot for the conversion of office space to residential space.
00;18;52;01 - 00;19;19;15
Kwesi
So I've heard of a lot of conversation around the programs, but I can't say I've heard of the details around them. I know that there's a number of buildings that it was actually, I guess it was last year. They had selected a certain amount of buildings within Ottawa that they're specifically looking at for these types of programs. And in terms of the conversion, I know there's like two, I'd say two big players in town who have really looked at this and really looked at the science around it and are actively looking to do these types of conversions.
00;19;19;15 - 00;19;38;04
Kwesi
But I'm not aware that they've finalized on what this program is going to be. Now, that being said, some of the affordable housing initiatives that exist would probably work. So if they're doing a certain amount of affordable housing, I mean, the city's got two programs in there. She's got a program that would probably work. I have to triple check, but I believe even CMHC might have something around that.
00;19;38;10 - 00;19;42;23
Kwesi
There's definitely a way that they can play with CMHC to take advantage when they're doing the conversion.
00;19;42;25 - 00;20;10;20
Fred
Sure. Yeah. So there was that program, and we're going to talk about it more during your Q&A. Yeah. So at the end of the day, not all buildings lend themselves nicely to this type of conversion. So there was a great big of noise about it and everybody was looking at it as the next and greatest investment opportunity. And the harsh reality is, is that not all buildings are suitable for this type of redevelopment.
00;20;10;22 - 00;20;40;06
Fred
Yeah. The other thing that you have to keep in mind is that during this period of time where there's been excess office space, a lot of potential tenants have taken advantage of the fact that there was a vacancy in maybe a class A building. And again, we don't need to get into class A, B's and C's. We have done that in previous shows, but essentially it's called leasing up.
00;20;40;08 - 00;21;03;25
Fred
So someone who may have leased a fair bit of space in a class B building, their class C, and again, the difference between class B and C is very much determined on the location of the building. Yes, Class-A buildings are usually the newest. Usually they have built in concierge service.
00;21;03;26 - 00;21;05;12
Kwesi
For.
00;21;05;14 - 00;21;32;09
Fred
High end and high speed elevators. They may even have, for instance, gyms and restaurants and all sorts of things available to the tenant. But that may be a class in a major center, but in a smaller center, a class, it doesn't necessarily have to have those amenities. Again, it's it's geographic in nature. So you could have a small town and you could have a three different buildings.
00;21;32;12 - 00;22;10;26
Fred
All may be built 20 years apart. And technically, from a definition standpoint, your newest building would you be your class even if it didn't have a high speed elevator? Yeah, it doesn't matter. So it's important to understand that, well, there's generics, generally speaking. You know, the point that's trying to be made here is someone in a particular geographic area who may have occupied a class B or C space, took advantage of the fact that they can move up or lease up to a nicer space with nicer accommodation, without a big increase in the amount of rent they were paying.
00;22;11;04 - 00;22;40;13
Fred
Because landlords who had and owned these Class-A buildings and for the most part, those landlords on those buildings are going to be leased to major institutions, companies, government agencies. And they were the ones that rolled back. They were the ones who sent their employees home. Yeah, they were the ones that bought out their leases. So all of a sudden you're a landlord, you've got this beautiful building, you want to fill it.
00;22;40;16 - 00;23;01;08
Fred
So what ends up happening is that someone comes by and says, well, I'm such and such and I'm in, you know, one, two, three class B building down the street. I'd love to get some space. But I'm worried about rental. Right. Hey, as a owner of a class A building, I'm going to say, come on down. We'll turn around and we'll.
00;23;01;11 - 00;23;08;29
Fred
We'll make it work for you. And then, of course, these landlords were even turning around and doing the leasehold improvements, and.
00;23;08;29 - 00;23;09;14
Kwesi
There was.
00;23;09;14 - 00;23;33;24
Fred
No cost to that tenant. So it was a win win, win win situation, not just for the tenant who as a whole the sudden really leased up and has got big, beautiful, bright office space with all the amenities, but also for the landlord because the landlord was able to turn a random leased space. Maybe his margin wasn't as much.
00;23;34;00 - 00;23;58;01
Fred
Maybe at the end of the day his his short term rate of return wasn't as much. But what he's done is that he's created a loyal tenant, so we need to kind of keep that all in mind. So what we're dealing with for these type of conversion projects are class B A, class C buildings. They're older. Yeah. There's no doubt about it because they're older.
00;23;58;08 - 00;24;47;03
Fred
Particularly if it was bills was crazy. You pointed out in the 70s. In the 80s I mean their floor plates do not lend themselves well at all. Yeah. Because you really essentially need to bring in plumbing and Hvac to each individual unit. It may as well. You may as well turn around and start building from scratch. I just want to touch base here a couple of things, because in Calgary, according to our friend Howard Choi, and I'm gonna paraphrase this, he says Calgary is ground zero for office conversions, not just in general, but across North America with about two point 7,000,000ft² of space across 21 office buildings converted or in the process of being
00;24;47;03 - 00;25;16;24
Fred
converted. I mean, that really says something. Now what they did. The City of Calgary created conversion incentives, offering $75 per square foot for every office space. Convert it. Now we're 75% going to get you. I'm gonna take an educated guess and say it may account for 25% of the the builder costs, I don't know, crazy whether you'd agree with me or not, but it really depends.
00;25;16;25 - 00;25;28;04
Fred
I'd say, you know, you got to be looking at easily $300 per square foot, if not more. But yeah, it depends on, you know, what the floor plate you're working with is. Yeah.
00;25;28;07 - 00;25;31;27
Kwesi
Blows up. But but the fact that they even give the incentive, I think.
00;25;31;29 - 00;25;32;14
Fred
Is that it.
00;25;32;14 - 00;25;45;12
Kwesi
Opens the door, says, let me actually look at this. I mean, I think our people wouldn't look at it because like you said, that unknown factor is such a such a deterrent for many people. It's not just any kind of contractor who can do the office conversion. You know.
00;25;45;14 - 00;26;25;28
Fred
Yeah. So another western Canadian city, Edmonton, is offering $100 per square foot, but there's not a lot of takers for it. There just isn't a lot of takers in Edmonton. And I would kind of suggest that maybe they weren't as hard hit during the pandemic as maybe Calgary was. I mean, again, I'm just taking an educated guess. And to many of our listeners that are familiar with with Canada and the various industries and different territories, it would make sense to you, considering that a lot of people would consider Calgary, maybe the economic center of, Western Canada.
00;26;25;28 - 00;26;45;11
Fred
I mean, look at I'm going to get in here crap from everybody about that. I'm just making a point. Yeah. It's you know, look at Calgary was first off the mark. The program in Edmonton only started in 2023 okay. They're offering more but there are fewer takers.
00;26;45;14 - 00;27;03;10
Kwesi
If I could just comment quickly I mean, I think that, I think there's a combination of things there. So if Congress earlier that's a good point. The number of buildings in Edmonton is probably less. The fact that then when you're converting these, a lot of these people are converting it into rental. Converting to rental in Calgary too.
00;27;03;11 - 00;27;18;20
Kwesi
The thing about Alberta has no rent control. So for someone who's looking at it as an operator, say, do I want to convert a building or should I just buy some land and build my own, you know, approvals for a building, new apartment building, building in general over there is quite quicker. So it's, it becomes a location thing.
00;27;18;20 - 00;27;30;16
Kwesi
I think if the location was sweet and when worthwhile, then it's certainly worth going into. But if you're building was challenging and the location was subpar, then maybe they just want to build a piece of land where.
00;27;30;18 - 00;27;50;29
Fred
You're absolutely right and, you know, not knowing too much about the vintage of some of these office buildings that are being considered. You know, at the end of the day, buildings that were built in the 60s and 70s, they're even more difficult to convert. Yeah. Yeah. So and those are the ones that inherently are going to suffer the most.
00;27;51;01 - 00;28;11;20
Fred
You may say, well, there's these office buildings that, you know, that that primarily are vacant, you know, and were vacant during the pandemic. But a lot of instances they make okay. But that doesn't mean the rent is being paid. Yeah. So you have to kind of keep that in mind. And outside of the fact that most of these larger buildings just don't convert.
00;28;11;20 - 00;28;38;24
Fred
Well, a lot of the smaller ones are actually, it's comical because in some instances in older parts of the city, the buildings that are currently commercial were originally built to be residential. So you're talking about building wise buildings that may have been, you know, maybe they could have been six, seven, eight door rows. They could have been these high rises, 4 to 6 storeys high.
00;28;38;26 - 00;28;55;28
Fred
And they were eventually converted. And now we're talking about converting them back. Anyways, I know we could talk this to death. This would be a great topic for the cast. But, you know, at the same time, you know, if there are no problems.
00;28;56;01 - 00;28;57;16
Bernie
There are no opportunities.
00;28;57;18 - 00;28;59;09
Fred
But very good. There we go.
00;28;59;16 - 00;29;19;26
Bernie
We got a quick question. Good quick question. If you're building, doing a green build or doing a rebuild, would you build that? You could flip the building. Either way, go from office to, home or a residential to residential door. Would you design it that way that you could. It was. Yeah. It's the Winds of Fortune that change again, like we have.
00;29;19;28 - 00;29;25;19
Bernie
We do not build the place so that it can be flipped either direction or is that be too costly?
00;29;25;21 - 00;29;58;02
Fred
Yeah. I think the I mean, I would like to think that what we experienced during the pandemic was, hopefully a once in a generation type of blimp in the air. Yeah. I don't I understand what it is you're saying some buildings could lend themselves to. Yeah, absolutely. But to build with that foresight, I don't believe. And look at I'm not I'm not the, the ultimate, you know, knowledge bearer on that front, but I don't believe there's really a cost effective basis.
00;29;58;07 - 00;30;18;28
Fred
I mean, it would be more like it would be akin to building a single family home and putting it in wash suite in it. That would be an easy conversion. Yeah. Talking about converting the use completely, you're talking about taking a residential unit and making a commercial unit out of that. The first thing and problem that you're going to have is with zoning.
00;30;19;01 - 00;30;38;20
Fred
You like zoning. You cannot overlook this term in a development project. Yeah. Just you just can't just because they say you could build a single family home or a low rise building, doesn't mean that it's a foregone conclusion. They're going to let you turn around and convert it to office space X number of and the road that's there.
00;30;38;22 - 00;31;11;22
Fred
So it's a good question. I just don't see it happening. Bernie. So thank you for the round table discussion. Everyone. Really some incredible insight. Very much appreciated. And I'm sure our listeners did too. I'd like to introduce to our listeners right now, Gracie Albaugh, who is the owner and operator of Klp Investment Realty and Advisory. It's a real estate investment firm that assists real estate investors in the acquisition and sale of commercial and investment real estate.
00;31;11;24 - 00;31;33;24
Fred
He also works with clients in joint venture opportunities for the purchase and development of commercial property right up our alley. Listeners Chris is a fully licensed bilingual real estate broker and formerly the broker of record for Center Capital Voice. He has been recognized in the marketplace for the past ten years. And actually, it's been longer than that now.
00;31;33;24 - 00;31;58;05
Fred
Crazy, right? Yeah yeah yeah yeah. As a well-connected commercial broker, although he is well versed in all aspects of real estate, he is well-respected as a commercial broker across many Ontario markets. Over his career, he's been involved in smaller plex sales under half $1 million to large portfolio sales worth upwards of $20 million. Welcome to the show. Crazy.
00;31;58;11 - 00;32;13;00
Fred
Thank you for the invaluable input that you had while discussing our in the new segment. And, I look forward to, additional insights when you introduce our guest to his first question of the day.
00;32;13;02 - 00;32;14;15
Bernie
Well, Fred, thank you so much.
00;32;14;15 - 00;32;17;14
Fred
I just didn't want you to fall asleep. Oh, no.
00;32;17;17 - 00;32;31;26
Bernie
I'm not falling asleep at all. No, the third wheel here, you know. No, no, all kidding aside, Quincy. So for our listeners, what is the what's the most recent project you've been involved with? Like, where are you building? What's the scoop behind it?
00;32;31;28 - 00;32;52;13
Kwesi
So. So right now we're working on, a, 20 unit development building. This is in Rockland, Ontario. Clarence Robert is just outside of Ottawa. Yeah, just literally like you flip, there's Ottawa on one line, and then you flip over the you're in Rockland, literally. So that's that's what we're working on now is 22 building. We're we're in the air.
00;32;52;15 - 00;33;09;21
Kwesi
This is gonna be a three story building. It's it's actually it's it's going quite well so far. They're actually work today Saturday. And there's actually guys working on it right now finishing the roof. So I'm, I'm actually being quite happy with the, the pace and, and the guys and the team that we have working on it. Everyone's been working quite well on it.
00;33;09;23 - 00;33;20;04
Fred
So how did you originally identify the property? Did you have an investor come to you? What were you looking for like how did you fall into this?
00;33;20;06 - 00;33;42;27
Kwesi
So how it how it came. So I'll take you back for a little bit. So my, my mom or that is what we do is she introduced me to real estate in general. Okay. So she owned well, grandma had a saying like, if you have land, you always eat. So she understood. Okay. If we invest in property over time, she bought one, bought one, then she bought this nice big Prince property on, 10th Line Road, northern needs.
00;33;42;27 - 00;34;01;18
Kwesi
Okay. And with the vision of developing it now, anyone who drove by, who drives by, you would recognize it's a big site. I think where that site is, one, I believe it's one from 140 by 220, something like that is. So it's a fair sized site. So if you mind and I mean acre. Okay. Yeah. Exactly.
00;34;01;18 - 00;34;20;26
Kwesi
So from that point, I mean in our, in our mind, okay, we want to buy I was looking at buying more infill sites that are going to be worthwhile for development. I mean, I understood that the baby boomer generation was certainly going to be looking for housing and probably downsizing in that type of thing. So when the property came up available now this is in 2018 that purchase property.
00;34;21;01 - 00;34;42;06
Kwesi
Okay. So and we only started construction in 2025. So when that property came available I knew we could do something with it. I knew what was also unique about it is I knew that the city had also recently changed the zoning specifically for that property. So the town at the time wanted to see infill and they wanted to see things going, being built, and they wanted to see housing.
00;34;42;06 - 00;34;59;24
Kwesi
And this was again and at the time, actually their push, the reason they had done it was because, they were actually hoping for a hotel to go there. Now time happens. Time changes. You know, the market changes, demand changes. They're very happy to see housing go there. You know, to be honest, it's been good. When we put in the application.
00;34;59;27 - 00;35;20;26
Kwesi
They're actually hoping to build a bigger building you know. And we we we looked at that. But the problem was the soil wasn't compatible enough to be able to support underground parking and would, it would it increased our cost quite a bit on, not not just the underground parking like cost, not just the cost of underground parking, but because the water table was higher.
00;35;20;28 - 00;35;53;25
Fred
Yeah, that entire area was the site of the Champlain Sea, as most sea beds are in that area. Yeah. There's a predominance of what's called lead a clay. You know, clay, when it's saturated by water, is very slippery, like very slippery. And it just does not if you want to build a building of any substance or size in the area, it takes a considerable amount of, cost and underpinning to do it so that it remains stable.
00;35;53;25 - 00;35;55;19
Fred
Sorry, just a little bit of a a song.
00;35;55;22 - 00;35;56;28
Kwesi
That's good. I know the area.
00;35;57;02 - 00;35;57;13
Fred
You can go, but.
00;35;57;14 - 00;36;13;11
Kwesi
I have. No it's good. It's it's an interesting thing too because so I had and I had my, office in that building before. And so that building is probably one of the older buildings in town. So I've heard the stories of from everyone, people who just pass by lock and say, this building used to be a nail salon.
00;36;13;12 - 00;36;32;06
Kwesi
This building, one person, one lady. I remember she participating walk by saying, yeah, my my brother, a long time ago, he had, he had a bakery in the building, you know, the, the one was that used to be a fish place there. Someone is like. Yeah, there used to be an apartment on top, you know. So it was a very interesting, very interesting thing to see a casino here, the history on it.
00;36;32;06 - 00;36;49;22
Kwesi
Yeah. But yeah. No, I mean, to your point about identifying the property, essentially it's definitely looking at a property that had infill potential that was going to be big enough to build some substance. And and something that, you know, we could build and hold for a long time and do well on. So that was that was the biggest criteria.
00;36;49;22 - 00;37;09;13
Kwesi
And the price, I mean, the price was, was attractive. I was fortunate enough that the seller was actually a developer themselves, but they were going through some some internal changes within the family. So they fortunately I remember to like was a little bit lighter than where she actually wanted to be price wise. But, you know, she, she let it go to her.
00;37;09;14 - 00;37;11;25
Kwesi
So, you know, we thank them for that.
00;37;11;27 - 00;37;21;26
Fred
Yeah. Brilliant. That's great. So you bought the property in 2018. Yeah. 2018. So you spent the next. There was a building on it at the time.
00;37;21;28 - 00;37;22;29
Kwesi
Yeah. Yeah.
00;37;23;01 - 00;37;24;13
Fred
And that's where you had your office.
00;37;24;18 - 00;37;42;04
Kwesi
Yeah. Yeah I had a small office, I rented it, I rented the other side of it. That was another key piece of it too. I wanted to make sure to get a property that had something on it. It would be financed for on the purchase, so we could pay it down slowly over time. And, you know, when you buy it just as land, it's much more difficult to finance, especially if you're not going to be building right away.
00;37;42;06 - 00;37;46;08
Kwesi
Absolutely. So that was definitely a criteria for us in terms like.
00;37;46;10 - 00;38;18;29
Fred
I it I got into a discussion just yesterday with, with a new client about just that. Yeah, about a large personal property. I have available. Yeah. For sale. And we got into the discussion and I asked him what it was he wanted to do, and he was talking about land banking. Okay. Very specifically told him I said, well, you must have some experience because land banking is probably the most expensive form of real estate investment because you don't additionally have income coming in for the downtown parcel and you're bringing in parking income.
00;38;19;01 - 00;38;46;22
Fred
Yeah, generally speaking, and even if it's a workable farm. Yeah. I mean, you can't generally command more, at least here in Eastern Ontario, it really varies on the type of soil you have. But you may get $125 an acre, or you could get $350 an acre. Yeah. And on the quality of the soil. But that isn't enough. Yeah, it's substantiate a purchase a 12 and $18,000 an acre.
00;38;46;25 - 00;39;07;11
Fred
Yeah, yeah. Land banking is that that ultimately many, many that I mean, so many people I can't even stop to count that made fortunes. Land banking. Yeah. But at the end of the day, you have to have the ability to hold or carry on the land.
00;39;07;12 - 00;39;07;25
Kwesi
Exactly.
00;39;07;26 - 00;39;28;22
Fred
Yeah. That's where most, most major builders, I don't care where you are, anywhere across North America, anywhere. What they'll do is they'll pour a substantial portion of their profits into land. I see builders now. They're building on a property that they've owned for 20, 25 years. Yeah, it's it's a short term type thing. Now tuition is a little different, but it proves the point.
00;39;28;28 - 00;39;39;09
Fred
I mean, there's a building on it. You made use of that, building some income until you could get it to the stage where you could rebuild. So I think that building that you that existed on it when you bought it.
00;39;39;09 - 00;39;43;22
Kwesi
Kwesi it was just two retail spaces. We were at 1500 square feet altogether.
00;39;43;24 - 00;39;44;23
Fred
And that's, excuse.
00;39;44;23 - 00;39;50;06
Kwesi
Me, 3 or 3000ft². That was like after our unit was 11 areas around 3000ft² all together at the.
00;39;50;06 - 00;40;13;29
Fred
Time, which is like next to no grand coverage. Yeah. Yeah, three quarters of an acre. Yeah. I mean, it's it's. Yeah. Because it's not even close. You have lots and lots of room. Good for you. Good for, you know, recognizing and seeing what a great opportunity that was. And it obviously so you buy the land. Yeah. You're working on the land manually.
00;40;13;29 - 00;40;29;29
Fred
You actually your offices in the building. On the land. Yeah. Who conceptualized what's being built now? Did you actually take it to a, a planner and say, what can I build on this. They explain to our oh, you went about it. Yeah.
00;40;30;01 - 00;40;57;06
Kwesi
So, you know, as you mentioned, obviously my background, in commercial real estate sales and we do quite a bit of apartment building. So I have quite experience in seeing the apartment building as it exists and different designs. And what. So the first thing I did, I did speak with the city to find out within the zoning, you know, what exactly can we do, how high can we go, how I can go, etc., etc. then from there we had a conversation with the architect, said, okay, let's put together a high level site plan on what can we do and I will.
00;40;57;06 - 00;41;16;29
Kwesi
I had to go. I did go to a few different ones. More time just to get different. You know, we started with one and then things slowed down and perspective changed. But all that being said, we got the site plan. Once we had the site plan, that's what I went to. That's what we went back to the city, you know, kind of get their comments on it, you know, and see what's happening from there.
00;41;16;29 - 00;41;33;28
Kwesi
But it was also during that time that we were doing some of the study. So the environmental studies or the environmental study was on a purchase, but we did the, geotechnical study. We did, some of the other I just started a little bit of the civil work to understand how deep these costs are going to be, and it was good that we did that.
00;41;33;28 - 00;41;53;17
Kwesi
And I suggest anyone to do your geotechnical early enough, because that's a big determination out if you can do underground parking or not, you know. So that's part had started before I leave with my, my JB partner and he, he's already built quite a bit of building. So, yeah, I would add one notion. He looked at the, the Geo report and was like, you know what?
00;41;53;17 - 00;42;13;24
Kwesi
I think we should scrap the underground parking concept and, just focus on going above ground. So we did have, you know, many different iterations. We had a five, like, because we could go up to six stories. So we had a six story model where we're going to do parking on the ground floor and then apartments above. We did have a model with underground parking, but after is kind of assessing everything.
00;42;13;24 - 00;42;29;08
Kwesi
And and also it being a sizable project, we said, you know, we want to keep it keep it in a, in a, in a price point. That's not going to keep us up at night. And also we tried to do it in a, at keep to the, a piece of building code where we can do three stories.
00;42;29;08 - 00;42;51;17
Kwesi
Would three stories, one without too many complications. And so that's why we ended up keeping it that size. And, you know, I think our, our architect a good job of working with that, designing that. The other big factor too, was parking. So in Clarence Rocklin, there's no public transit, you know what I mean? So the parking had a big factor in how big the building could actually finally be.
00;42;51;24 - 00;43;06;28
Kwesi
You know, if this building was in the city of Ottawa, then definitely we could do more. I mean, the city requirements for parking are quite less, even the Clarence Rocklin ones. I don't think there are. I mean, we did have to get a permission to do a little bit less than what they were offering, but even they agreed that, you know what?
00;43;06;28 - 00;43;16;04
Kwesi
I think this building, given the location, given the amount of parking on the street, I feel that it's okay that, you know, and we're only one shy of what they typically want it. So it wasn't like a huge, huge swing.
00;43;16;04 - 00;43;19;04
Fred
That they make you go through a minor variance process. Yeah.
00;43;19;09 - 00;43;20;17
Kwesi
Yeah we did. Yeah we did.
00;43;20;20 - 00;43;44;23
Fred
Yeah. So again listeners, the one thing that you want to keep in mind is that regardless of where you are, underground parking cost more per square foot than the actual construction of the building is. Yeah. So there's a huge wall. Underground parking is is nice to have, particularly in situations where parking is and comes at a premium. Yeah.
00;43;44;23 - 00;44;03;12
Fred
In this particular case, as crazy pointed out, it wasn't deemed absolutely necessary. And as a consequence of making that decision development decision, you saved yourself a huge amount of money. So yeah, all the numbers kind of come in and work that way. So good for you. Good for you.
00;44;03;15 - 00;44;25;08
Bernie
Richard Frasier, congratulations on getting that a lot of moving parts. Yeah. How do you give your. Listen, this is a good place, and there's enough people to sustain it. There's the demand there at large. Or is it the city saying that versus like, do you could have done a mix of, residential and office or residential and retail.
00;44;25;10 - 00;44;44;14
Bernie
Yeah. What was make you know, how did you come down and shake it from, you know, this is the goal and this is what we're adding, ending up today because it there as, as you go moving forward. Like you said, the soil is lend itself well to, underground crash rate, which, yeah, could compound things. So how did you how did you get to the end, like.
00;44;44;15 - 00;44;49;07
Bernie
Well, what was the on off switch it go. No go in the project.
00;44;49;09 - 00;45;07;02
Kwesi
So from a go no go perspective, it came down to how we were going to line up our financing. And I'd say that was a big piece of it. We had we had certainly we're going to go residential because the like financing is a big piece of development, right? It's a big piece. And so we understood the financing that was out there.
00;45;07;05 - 00;45;27;01
Kwesi
We understood, I mean, I guess we'll get into it later, maybe have a select program. We understood that. Yes. Although I'm on Laurier Street, although, yes, I could do some, commercial. I just like we we looked at it, did look at it quite a bit, but I just didn't feel it was necessary necessarily given also where we are on Laurier Street, like where we are, we could do it.
00;45;27;06 - 00;45;49;08
Kwesi
But also the other big thing is to when you do commercial, then you need, more parking per square foot. So it would be able to be as dense as possible and really make things flow and not have to take advantage, not have to give up so much parking. It was best to do residential, so that that's how that went in in terms of the go no go, it really was a matter of making sure we lined everything up.
00;45;49;11 - 00;46;11;20
Kwesi
From the financing funds that we had, I would have to bring through to getting kind of prequalified with, CMHC. Like, we had a good I, you know, I have to say, we have good rapport with our, contact at, at, so we end up getting it through seamless. So we had a good rapport with them and actually with us, we had there was a grant program that we went after, and so we were in constant contact with CMHC the whole way through.
00;46;11;22 - 00;46;32;08
Fred
Great. Morneau. The plan was to get into it just a little later, but we agreed on the topic. So why don't you tell us about working with CMHC? Because really, I want to know how you financed it. Crazy. And I'm sure our listeners would like to, too. So how did you finance it? So there you are. You have this property?
00;46;32;12 - 00;46;41;15
Fred
Yeah. Did you did you pay cash for it? Do you have a mortgage on it to begin with? Tell me from the get go. Pretty. How did you buy it?
00;46;41;18 - 00;47;04;22
Kwesi
Okay, so we bought the property originally. Yes, I did have. Now, keep in mind the purchase price of the property at the time was around, like, 250,000. Okay, so by the time that we got our plans together and everything like that, it appraised. And this again, this is in 2025 or 2024 or early 2024 and it appraised at 900,000.
00;47;04;25 - 00;47;23;28
Kwesi
So there is good good equity growth in being able to sell it. So we did have it. So we did have a mortgage on it. And so what we had to do and that was another piece to play in terms of, of making the numbers work. So what we had to do, we had to build it in a way, we were going to make sure to create enough equity that we can.
00;47;24;03 - 00;47;47;27
Kwesi
So I did I still have a smaller mortgage on it. So we created enough equity, be able to take out the mortgage through the construction finance piece of it. So that's how that was taken care of. And then when we received their first draw, well, let me even take one step back because one thing that people like you will hear from them, I select selected, they'll give you the funds to do the project, but you have to make sure it's they only give it to you after the fact after you spent the money.
00;47;48;03 - 00;48;07;17
Kwesi
Right? It has to be ready to go for them so they know that, okay, we give this money, this thing is getting built. That was always their their concern. They want to make sure it's going to be built. So I did end up having to take some private money to pay for some of this off course. As we went, as we went, as we went, as we went.
00;48;07;20 - 00;48;22;09
Kwesi
And it wasn't until we got the first floor that some of these, that a lot of these things get paid out, and it doesn't even all get paid out of one time. It's only a portion is a portion of that pace that a percentage of that gets paid out. But as we go, we get more draws. We work.
00;48;22;09 - 00;48;40;13
Kwesi
So it's actually work is done. Then you get a draw pay that, you pay your, the consultants and the contractors and workers and staff that just like that keep moving that forward that way. But and so from CMHC perspective, though, I have to say, my relationship or our time with them and our experience has been good, like they were certainly good.
00;48;40;13 - 00;48;56;10
Kwesi
And I don't have any complaints from that. From that perspective, as relates to the MLA select, they deal with the bank and the bank deals with us. But as really with that grant program, we were directly with them. And it is, a long process for us to be able to get that.
00;48;56;12 - 00;49;03;25
Fred
So the grant was actually administered through CMHC rather than the municipality or the province.
00;49;03;25 - 00;49;25;13
Kwesi
Yes, yes, yes. So I always good. It's because they're there I guess criteria is more up to date. So the province does have a program where if you offer so many affordable units are. And that's where our brand came in. We have a number of affordable units. But the province is this is the threshold was just in my opinion, just out of line with with today.
00;49;25;13 - 00;49;47;27
Kwesi
So they have they basically said what the average rents are for our municipality. And now maybe because Clarence Rockland's a smaller place, they just haven't done the numbers yet, but they had it as basically we would have had to rent our bachelor units like under $600 and 600 is just like, you can't write a bedroom for $600 these days, or, you.
00;49;47;27 - 00;49;49;14
Fred
Know, 10 or 600 bucks.
00;49;49;20 - 00;50;04;23
Kwesi
Yeah. You know, so. Yeah. Yeah. So so it was very it was very it was, it wasn't something that we could go after. But the CMHC program was based on something that was a bit more, bit more feasible to the marketplace. And so we were able to go after that.
00;50;04;25 - 00;50;09;01
Fred
So you designed and built your building so that.
00;50;09;05 - 00;50;11;23
Kwesi
The building is not built, built yet, but we designed it.
00;50;11;26 - 00;50;21;22
Fred
But your design build concept is based on CMHC criteria in order to facilitate the financing.
00;50;21;24 - 00;50;42;14
Kwesi
So I would say, yeah, I would say that that that program was certainly in mind in the design. So they have certain that not, not only not only just so in the design, but also the design, like the mechanical system, the plumbing system, like they have thresholds in terms of how efficient the building has to be. You know, you get certain points for how much, amenity space and accessibility that you're offering.
00;50;42;19 - 00;51;00;20
Kwesi
So our building is, we call it chateaux is something on there? Chateau 632. And we're very much tailored to like a 55 plus audience. And one of the reasons I did that when you talked about the market. So I did own some, smaller plex, and it's actually but it's almost across the street that I purchased in 2015.
00;51;00;26 - 00;51;19;04
Kwesi
Okay. So we bought that triplex 2015. I did live in it, actually. That was my home for a while, renovated the whole thing and got a real good sense of the market locally. Very good, very good sense. But I what I also I noticed there's only if I think about it, I could count on one hand how many buildings in town have elevators.
00;51;19;06 - 00;51;41;22
Kwesi
I had done a report before coming into the city on the demographics of the area, and the demographics of the 55 plus in this area, like, far outweighs, any of the other ones. Now, the lower demographic is catching up because they're starting to build a lot more housing, but there's a deep population of people 55 plus who are going to be looking for a building, and they're going to be looking for something with elevators.
00;51;41;29 - 00;51;57;15
Kwesi
And it's come a little bit true because even the calls are were getting in on the leasing side, I'm getting we're we're getting great calls on people who are excited about the property, who are actually now who had, I guess, been looking for it, but they're actually talking to us. Yeah, yeah. Okay. We're getting ready to of Wednesday.
00;51;57;17 - 00;52;10;10
Kwesi
Start thinking about selling my house to be able to get into this thing. So it I think it goes full circle in terms of the marketplace. They know some of these things. Okay. So the young people buy the house and you know grandma, grandpa sitting in a 3000 square foot house they don't need.
00;52;10;13 - 00;52;14;00
Fred
Yeah that's that's great. Absolutely brilliant. That's that's.
00;52;14;03 - 00;52;18;11
Bernie
Great. I've got some questions now. Yeah. Awesome.
00;52;18;13 - 00;52;20;26
Fred
Do you have a two bedroom that you can use?
00;52;20;28 - 00;52;46;26
Bernie
I'm not getting kicked out of the house here. I'm good. What's the difference between doing rental versus condo? That's kind of a second question. The first question you talked about different financing models, models or components. And so you got to go to the one person first, and you've got to go to the second person, you know, and follow the daisy chain where how do you stack it and what has that you kind of mentioned with, CMHC.
00;52;46;29 - 00;53;03;20
Bernie
Yeah. You gotta have most of the stuff ready that, you know, flip the switch on and roll. But like for the bank, like, when do things have to be in place for you to make it more successful or is it a progress, activity like you, when you're building up and you're doing progress pretty much right when you're doing a rental, right?
00;53;03;20 - 00;53;10;14
Bernie
You go so far. And then for how did you have a lot from a financial perspective? I have this, shape that.
00;53;10;17 - 00;53;15;09
Fred
So did you approach the bank first or CMHC first?
00;53;15;11 - 00;53;41;15
Kwesi
Okay. So with us and the grant program existing, here's what's essentially the grant program that I was after was this one particular program. But before it was like unfortunate and almost like, so I do this thing on my Instagram called journey 250. We go through it. By all that said, there is a specific program with a specific amount of money that was tailored to it, and we had started this like even I think it was, April 2024.
00;53;41;17 - 00;53;55;10
Kwesi
And then we were in contact with them, in contact with them. And, you know, we had a person who was just talk with us and give it that to that. But so we would submit and then say, no, no, we want more staff. We want it to be further along. So then we submit that we want more staff to be for the loan.
00;53;55;13 - 00;54;08;21
Kwesi
And then we would submit and they say, we want you to have, you know, the bank lined up. So we got things lined up with the bank further, all further along. And then when we finally got to the point where they thought they had everything, they said all the money was gone. So all of that time. Yeah.
00;54;08;21 - 00;54;16;29
Kwesi
They said we spent all that time working on that particular grant program. And when we started, no, she said, yeah, there's lots of money there. And then by the time we actually saw the money's gone.
00;54;17;01 - 00;54;20;23
Fred
So who were you applying for the grant with?
00;54;20;25 - 00;54;43;07
Kwesi
It was through CVC or was. Yeah, yeah, it was a program. Right. Okay. And so I mean, to make a long story short, unfortunately, what they do and I think it's because we went in early and I would say that any would try and get in like at least have some kind of talk in rapport as early as possible, because I think that rapport that we built with them and they they saw the project, they saw the value of the project.
00;54;43;14 - 00;54;59;24
Kwesi
I don't think they had done any type of these grants or had seen many projects in our area. So I think that lent a hand to it, actually. We even got some support from a lot of the look from some of the local, organizations in town as well. Like they've written some letters for us saying, yes, there's a deep demand for housing in the area.
00;54;59;27 - 00;55;19;00
Kwesi
Please, you know, consider these guys for the application. So I think that certainly worked in our favor. So ultimately they did come up with something for us, but it was a fraction of what we were anticipating. But that being said, it's still it was still okay because we bought the land early enough. We had enough equity in there.
00;55;19;02 - 00;55;29;20
Kwesi
And, you know, we had we had done our performance in a way that we had done and performed in a way that we felt we could we could still make it work. And so we still went forward with it.
00;55;29;23 - 00;55;35;03
Bernie
Condo versus rental is either one side of the coin better than the other, or.
00;55;35;05 - 00;55;53;19
Kwesi
I think it depends on what your your vision is. I think it depends on where things are set in the market now. I think if you could remember, like the condo market at the time when we were starting was very I mean, even now, I mean, people talk about the kind of economy of time there is, I guess a lot of movement in it.
00;55;53;19 - 00;56;11;29
Kwesi
And rental was the biggest thing. Now we're in the rental business, so that's really where it came for us. We'd always been in that rental business. The vision for for myself when I looked at it and like I do business for my mom as well, our vision was to be able to purchase certain amount of rental properties. So it was always going to be rental for while.
00;56;11;29 - 00;56;26;28
Kwesi
I can't say it was always going to be because, you know, because, you know, markets change, things change if you have to pay, if you have to pay back. But our vision, for the most part was to do rental. Now, there was that concept. You know, we have a concept in the beginning thinking, okay, well, you know, if we do, we can do it as rental, but we can condominium.
00;56;26;28 - 00;56;41;06
Kwesi
And I said in the beginning. And so that way if we're going to sell those condos later, we can do that. We opted not to do that though, mostly because when it's when the building is designed is, when you design a building to be a condo properly, it's going to be a little bit different than being a rental building.
00;56;41;09 - 00;56;59;28
Kwesi
Okay? It's you know, there's a lot of people who do you have condos and people who rent condos, but it's it can be a different feel in that building than it can be in a rental building. So rental was was certainly the focus and direction that we were taken. But going forward, I'd say that's going forward with where the marketplace is now.
00;57;00;03 - 00;57;13;03
Kwesi
I know they're saying there's a lot of condos. I wouldn't be against condos because of this experience. I've had with this. I wouldn't be against doing a condo. But rental is still the focus as long as the market, as long as there's enough, demand in the market to sell.
00;57;13;04 - 00;57;36;19
Fred
You're really playing to the right market to. I mean, condominiums really haven't been the rage for quite some time. The the to a condominium is or has been that it's a good entry point for a first time home buyer only because of the cost. Yeah. From a long term basis, all market trends and all studies that I've read.
00;57;36;22 - 00;58;04;21
Fred
And as a matter of fact, everything that I've read is pointing towards the rental market is being strong for the next several decade. Yeah, once, not years, decades. And that's the reason why these huge, real estate funds, rates and otherwise. But these huge private real estate funds are buying complete tracts of subdivisions. You'll see it here in Canada like you do in the States.
00;58;04;29 - 00;58;29;10
Fred
Yeah, in the States. It's it's happened time and time again where a major player has stepped in when a development is announced and said, you know what, if they have it by providing financing or actually doing the build themselves? Yeah, isn't their thing. But what is their thing is holding on to rental units and rental accommodation they're eyeing.
00;58;29;10 - 00;58;53;07
Fred
That is the place to be for the next for the long term, for that we turn. So they're going into major developers and saying, yeah, you're building a 250 unit subdivision here. We are going to buy the whole thing from you. That's what's happening. One year looked at a stable and it's something that, you know, goes back to what your grandmother was saying.
00;58;53;09 - 00;59;01;09
Fred
You know, if you have land, you'll always be wealthy. At the end of the day, everyone needs a place to stay. Exactly. Needs a home.
00;59;01;12 - 00;59;01;29
Kwesi
Exactly.
00;59;02;00 - 00;59;19;18
Fred
And part of the issue is, as you know, Bernie, you and I have discussed this ad nauseum has to do with the fact that you look for people who are having difficulty getting into the into the marketplace. So what do you do if you can't buy your rent?
00;59;19;20 - 00;59;37;05
Kwesi
Yeah, but I think that there's, there's there's two sides to it too, because I mean, I, you know, I know people is certainly a lot of times are looking at that at that portion. You know, if you can't buy, you rent. But I think the renting is also a lifestyle. You know, I think a lot of people get to a point where necessarily, you know what, I don't really care to cut the grass.
00;59;37;05 - 00;59;55;01
Kwesi
I don't have to deal with the maintenance of the roof. I don't want to deal with this. I don't want to deal with that. I just want a place. And, you know, especially as people get older, they're traveling more. You know, I have my place up here. You know, the landlord takes care of everything. I got some friends next door, you know, because a lot of times, too, I mean, some of the calls you get, people are, you know, one of their significant other has passed away.
00;59;55;08 - 01;00;10;25
Kwesi
You know, their kids are looking. They're truly just they're by themselves. At least if they're in the building, there's some other people to talk to. But even not even thinking about it, 55 plus, even as a young person, I mean, if I'm in a rental building, there's, you know, I'm in a rental building. The building has amenities. The building to the location I want it to be the built.
01;00;10;26 - 01;00;24;19
Kwesi
Everything is new. I don't have to worry about this, that the third. There's other ways that they can, you know, use their money to still get a return. Of course, I think if you're going to be in a home for, like, you know, 35 years or whatever, you know, you're going to build your family here, you have your job here.
01;00;24;21 - 01;00;36;05
Kwesi
Yes. Having a house is certainly ideal, but sometimes you get to a point where it might not need to work on the house anymore. You know, it can take equity out, have to go to work and have a more of a free flowing lifestyle.
01;00;36;08 - 01;00;56;23
Fred
Yeah, absolutely. That's so true. And it's something that I'm part of that age group where, you know, right now my wife and I are having, you know, constant discussions about that. Yeah. About like, okay, what's the next? Look, we've lived at our home for 40 plus years. We. Yeah, a long time. Yeah. The discussion is still there. Yeah.
01;00;56;25 - 01;01;22;18
Fred
Like is this what we want to do? I mean, we're still relatively young, but yeah, you know, it's just the lifestyle that we, that we want. I mean, if we're having that discussion and I know amongst my acquaintances and cohorts and friends, you know, that's a discussion as you get older and older, you're going to have more, not just with yourself but with your significant other.
01;01;22;20 - 01;01;23;20
Fred
Yeah.
01;01;23;23 - 01;01;27;15
Bernie
Well, I'm just I was enjoying the, the whole, the whole stream here.
01;01;27;17 - 01;01;28;10
Fred
There.
01;01;28;12 - 01;01;44;06
Bernie
But. Yeah. Yeah. No. So building the project, getting it all kind of wrapped up. How do you, how did you pick the contractor like, you know, is best price. Is it, past experience. What were your keys and how did you, maintain quality control?
01;01;44;09 - 01;02;01;19
Kwesi
So it was it wasn't just a price thing for us. It was experience. And like, the relationship that we kind of had within the door with them. So it's because we got pricing. Interestingly enough, I had some very, very low pricing. And then I had some pricing that was quite a bit higher than I, where I thought it was going to be.
01;02;01;19 - 01;02;23;18
Kwesi
And then we had some in the middle. And so, it really came to like the group that we picked, I think I, I don't want to necessarily say lucked out, but I think we certainly picked. Right. Because it's interesting because we were leading a different way. But they were, they were they made it a point to make sure to keep calling me, you know, and said, you know, I'm not just to ask for the business, but to talk about what they can do.
01;02;23;18 - 01;02;37;26
Kwesi
And there are they're always sure, you know, this is this angle, this is that angle that, that it and, but what was big was that they had recently done like. Yeah. Of all the, of all the ones we looked at, they had all recently done some apartment buildings. And so that was that was a huge criteria.
01;02;37;26 - 01;02;54;10
Kwesi
We wanted to make sure it was not just any type of home builder because, I mean, technically, at this size, at this type of building only being three stores within that part of the building code person who built a house can legally build this. But you want to have to have the we wanted someone who had the experience.
01;02;54;16 - 01;03;10;25
Kwesi
We want someone who was also with CBC. Sometimes you have to be bonded. So we had we needed to make sure they were familiar with the bond process. And but also these guys, they have they understand the investment background of it and mean they really do. I mean, there's you know, we have a good rapport with them and we've been quite happy so far.
01;03;10;27 - 01;03;15;14
Fred
We know how to do it. You know what we say about experience experiences though.
01;03;15;16 - 01;03;18;00
Bernie
Well, the best teacher or the best voice?
01;03;18;02 - 01;03;34;05
Kwesi
I mean, in theory there is one thing and, willingness is another thing, but experience is the biggest thing because I didn't we didn't, you know, this is the for myself. I mean, it's the first project of this kind of size for my business partner. It's a smaller, smaller project for him. So for me and him, it works out well.
01;03;34;05 - 01;03;49;01
Kwesi
But from the from the contractor's perspective, you know, I didn't want it to I wasn't willing to take a gamble on someone who wasn't who could look at this and just say, this is a walk in the park. You know what I mean? Just, you know, give us the plans and kind of go for it. So.
01;03;49;03 - 01;03;57;24
Fred
So, you know, we could talk with you for hours, obviously. But what advice would you have for anyone contemplating a similar type project?
01;03;57;26 - 01;04;12;08
Kwesi
I would say don't be one. I'd say, don't be afraid to do joint ventures like we did. Opening the door to a joint venture I think was the biggest loss and making sure to to move this forward because, I mean, for the for in the beginning, I was really hoping to do it myself, do it myself, do it myself.
01;04;12;08 - 01;04;26;01
Kwesi
But the fact of the matter is, you know, in business is a team sport and that's what you are doing. You are it's a building, but, you know, you're running a business. So business is a team sport. So don't be afraid to bring in someone who has a little bit of the, the knowledge that you might be lacking on.
01;04;26;01 - 01;04;45;01
Kwesi
And you don't don't have to have enough fun. It's also nice to have a, you know, partner with, there's some surprise costs and they have some extra cash that they could come in with, too. So that's, certainly, that's certainly assistance, but I would say, like, it's funny because I have a client, as it's mentioned, obviously, we sell, apartment buildings as well.
01;04;45;01 - 01;05;03;14
Kwesi
And I have a client. They're looking at a piece of property that they have purchased, and I think you got to build, you got to build for your site, but also build within your means. So, I mean, it's what I originally they had a particular design on the site and I was like, you know what? If you're just to tweak this design differently, we would actually be able to save here, here and here here.
01;05;03;17 - 01;05;24;28
Kwesi
And so those exercises are definitely, definitely something to do because and that's also, again, the difference between hiring your person who's done multiple perfect buildings, and your architect who's design multiple prior to hiring the person who maybe typically does a house and say, you know, we can do this. And the architect, you know, we can do this and make it super jazzy and this, that and the other and it goes off the grid.
01;05;25;01 - 01;05;35;10
Kwesi
But you got to remember where you sit, you know, you got to remember, you know what you can truly get per square foot. You got to you got to understand what is actually the best way to run, a rental building.
01;05;35;12 - 01;05;42;16
Fred
So that, like most things in life, proves the point. That experience is the best teacher.
01;05;42;18 - 01;05;43;25
Bernie
The better teacher.
01;05;43;27 - 01;05;51;13
Fred
Okay, I don't know what's up with you today. Pretty much. Oh. Anyways, so, you want to take us home, Burnie?
01;05;51;15 - 01;05;58;28
Bernie
Sure. The Quincy all kidding aside, and all the experience you've had and all the things you've been taught, what are you working on now?
01;05;59;00 - 01;06;14;20
Kwesi
So now the big thing is to one, I want to finish the building because, you know, it's not just about the construction. So when you look at these things and we see people see the construction part, the construction part, they think of the development, but the development is like the whole process from the land acquisitions to the consulting to that.
01;06;14;24 - 01;06;30;06
Kwesi
We have to finish the building and make sure it's done on time, on budget. Then we got to make sure the lease goes properly and get it filled. So from that point of view, that's this project taking it to the to the end, we're hoping to be, finished in November 2026. We have already pretty leased some units, which has been good.
01;06;30;06 - 01;06;47;04
Kwesi
So we want to make sure we get at least on time and and get everyone in. So that's I say, the biggest focus. But the next building. So like I mentioned my mom has a property on 10th line. And so that's very much our next focus. So that would be the next one to be the client. And that'll be a bigger building as well because the land size is quite bigger.
01;06;47;04 - 01;07;03;13
Kwesi
So it was great. So this is we do this one good. It's the great experience. Well we'll I'm sure there'll be other. So you know so far there's maybe maybe not many but maybe some minor things I might have done, I might have done differently minor things. But honestly I, you know, I'm very happy with how I was going.
01;07;03;13 - 01;07;22;11
Kwesi
So far. But the idea is to have this experience, we can move on to the next one and do, do a quite sizable, sizable project. And of course, we're still selling at this listing. Our clients, who are also looking at buying other buildings and, and, other pieces of land because fact matter, you can't do everything, you know, you can't be involved in everything, can't buy everything.
01;07;22;11 - 01;07;23;23
Kwesi
So we want your.
01;07;23;23 - 01;07;27;05
Fred
Exit strategy on this project or are you just going to get a hold?
01;07;27;07 - 01;07;41;17
Kwesi
Yeah. Our plan is to hold the project. Now, if we had to, we could sell it. But our plan is to hold it. We're looking to be a long term holders on this. I mean, myself, my business partner with that. That is the same mindset if I do that. You know, my business partner, we actually it's it's a bit unique actually.
01;07;41;17 - 01;08;01;06
Kwesi
So we've known each other actually since high school, this particular park and but I did I didn't know and we kept in touch and I'd actually he, you know, his father was actually a client of ours, and I've done, so buildings for him. And, it wasn't until, like, only a little bit later, I understood, I thought that he had all these other projects that he was doing, too.
01;08;01;06 - 01;08;05;09
Kwesi
So it was. It was that interesting, turn of events.
01;08;05;11 - 01;08;16;04
Fred
That's great. What a history. So thank you. Crazy. We finish up with some rapid fire questions just by doing this. Can get to know you a little better.
01;08;16;11 - 01;08;16;24
Kwesi
Okay.
01;08;17;00 - 01;08;21;12
Fred
Toot toot toot toot toot crazy.
01;08;21;17 - 01;08;27;10
Bernie
What are you into? Reading wise? Are you into, novels? Fantasy.
01;08;27;12 - 01;08;45;23
Kwesi
For me, it's always been some sort of like, education or something with a purpose behind it. I've never been one to, although my parents didn't like it, but I never been into. Just read it. Reading a book like my sister's into Harry Potter, but I never could. I got a got into that or anything like that. So, yeah, like I like to leave.
01;08;45;24 - 01;08;56;08
Kwesi
I read books that are good. I gotta help Billy. I don't know if you call them self-help or improvement books or educational books or whatever you want to call them, but that's always been the types of things that I'd like to read.
01;08;56;11 - 01;08;58;10
Fred
So do you have a favorite book?
01;08;58;13 - 01;09;16;01
Kwesi
I don't know that I could say I have a favorite book. I can say, so recently it's funny, I, I, I've read Take a Good Race long like, you know, a long time ago. And I recently read that book, which was interesting. So I reread that book and it's so that was really interesting. And then they had the other the power of, that Tony Robbins book, Unlimited Power.
01;09;16;01 - 01;09;33;13
Kwesi
Yeah, yeah, I wrote that read that one again to some time ago. And then there's, there's a lot of different small books too, that I like, that I've been reading some stuff specifically on real estate as, you know, from the real estate agent business to the development business to business and just business in general. So those are those are the types of things.
01;09;33;13 - 01;09;33;29
Kwesi
Yeah.
01;09;34;01 - 01;09;36;07
Fred
Self-improvement books burning.
01;09;36;10 - 01;09;41;27
Bernie
You have a favorite meal. Is there something that going that's your go to, sustenance.
01;09;41;29 - 01;09;44;23
Kwesi
Whatever my significant other is going to cook for me.
01;09;44;26 - 01;09;46;25
Bernie
The short answer good answer.
01;09;46;28 - 01;09;51;19
Fred
Sorry that you're that you're there a mama used to make for you that you really enjoy.
01;09;51;26 - 01;09;58;25
Kwesi
Yeah, yeah. And was I mean, my mom. So we're from Ghana and West Africa, so. Really? Yeah. Yeah. You know.
01;09;58;27 - 01;10;05;27
Fred
I made reference to that earlier. Earlier on in the podcast. I didn't realize it isn't that funny okay. All right. Go ahead.
01;10;05;29 - 01;10;19;28
Kwesi
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No. Yeah. So my mom will make, jollof rice. So that's all we'll have with whatever. With chicken or with some vegetables or something like that. So yeah, it's how we say, that's always, always nice when I go home. Sure.
01;10;20;00 - 01;10;23;08
Fred
So do you have a favorite alcoholic beverage or.
01;10;23;08 - 01;10;35;11
Kwesi
Well, I'm not the biggest beer guy. What I do, but I do have beer. Like, it's funny, in town, there's a couple of, So if I not. So I live, like, only the homeless down the street from this particular one. The building we're building. So it's it's unique to me in in town, there's a couple of breweries.
01;10;35;16 - 01;10;53;10
Kwesi
So when it comes to beer, I do like to go to the actual breweries and get that something that's local, that's unique. That way, whether it's supporting, it's a different taste. And I'm into that. I don't, you know, you go to the bar today, it's you got to spend so much to get only so far. So it's, it's a different experience, but I do like.
01;10;53;17 - 01;11;02;25
Kwesi
But so when it comes to beer. But I'm not the biggest beer guy. Honestly, I'll. I'll have wine, but my go to drink, I'd say as simple as it is, it be like a rum and Coke.
01;11;02;27 - 01;11;04;00
Fred
There you go.
01;11;04;02 - 01;11;06;09
Bernie
Yeah, it's a perfect day. Look like for you.
01;11;06;11 - 01;11;23;03
Kwesi
So every day I say this. Every day, more or less. Every day. We wake up at, around 430, and then we go to the gym. And so that's how every day starts. Except for Monday. Monday is my off day. And then every other day I'm in the gym. There might be one other day, if you know something happening, we'll take it up.
01;11;23;03 - 01;11;43;22
Kwesi
But every day, every day pretty much always starts in the gym. Whether I'm lifting or running or doing something, it always starts in the gym. And then from there you want to be able to get. I like to do my morning a certain way. I have my afternoons a certain way and have the evenings hopefully finished in a perfect world by 6 or 7 and then and then, then I'll be relaxing for the rest of the evening.
01;11;43;24 - 01;11;47;11
Fred
Well, yeah. So where's your favorite place in the world to visit?
01;11;47;13 - 01;12;05;11
Kwesi
My favorite place in the world to visit. I don't know if I've been there yet, so it's tough to say. So I'll say of the places that I've been, I'd say places with water. I like to relax in the water if I can. Definitely. You know, I'm looking forward to going back to God as soon if I, hopefully have that opportunity.
01;12;05;14 - 01;12;09;19
Kwesi
And, you know, home is a nice place to be to when there's when there's peace of mind.
01;12;09;21 - 01;12;11;03
Fred
Absolutely.
01;12;11;05 - 01;12;16;19
Bernie
Just to wrap this up, what's your favorite type of ice cream or is it ice cream that is your favorite dessert?
01;12;16;21 - 01;12;19;00
Kwesi
Not a big ice cream person. Interesting enough, you know.
01;12;19;00 - 01;12;20;07
Fred
Oh no no.
01;12;20;11 - 01;12;37;01
Kwesi
No no no. Certainly have ice cream. You know, like you all have a chocolate. But but I have but I actually have more which this might be weird. I'll have like, so I have cottage cheese and then I'll put, chocolate chips in it and I'll have that. That'll be like my, my ice cream.
01;12;37;03 - 01;12;38;17
Fred
Okay. All right. That's not bad.
01;12;38;17 - 01;12;43;27
Bernie
You might want to try. There's, again, the kind of cheese is called quark.
01;12;43;29 - 01;12;45;00
Kwesi
Quark. Okay.
01;12;45;02 - 01;13;11;26
Bernie
And so you and you take plum jam and you mix it in there, okay? It'll give you a by itself. It's two. But now, but you have the plum, and it's perfect. The both blending gives a kind of a nice so called Bernie quark two where k it's okay. It's kind of like a, yogurt cottage cheese mix has the consistency of, cottage cheese, except it's solid.
01;13;11;26 - 01;13;16;27
Bernie
Not, not chunky. And, Yeah. And if you put it on a toast.
01;13;16;29 - 01;13;40;19
Fred
Yeah. My mother used to make us Hungarian, and I, my mother used to make, like, she used to take egg noodles and mix in cottage cheese and, a little bit of cinnamon. And, that was like a, like a great dessert. If my memory serves me correct, it was really something else. So crazy. Thank you. So much for being our guest today.
01;13;40;19 - 01;13;42;11
Fred
It's been an absolute pleasure.
01;13;42;13 - 01;13;43;17
Kwesi
And thank you for having me.
01;13;43;21 - 01;14;03;11
Fred
Thank you for your a very knowledgeable, you know, young man. You know, your craft and, we here at the Property Wizard, we're very, very happy to have you agree and to be a guest on our show. So thank you. I'm sure there's going to be all sorts of questions for you. So what's the best way for someone to get Ahold of you?
01;14;03;13 - 01;14;21;13
Kwesi
Probably by email. So you could send me an email. k bourne at dot investing. Okay, but feel free to reach out on other social platforms as well. If you're on LinkedIn, it's on only seven with send me a message board. You can certainly send me a message there I am on Instagram and Facebook as well, but LinkedIn is probably the most active for me.
01;14;21;15 - 01;14;24;19
Fred
Perfect. Brilliant. Anything to add, Bernie or Fred?
01;14;24;19 - 01;14;44;02
Bernie
I feel more even more enlightened understanding how a project comes together. Because we've we've talked in the past about the arguing the ground study, you know, the, environmental studies, that whole nine yards. But, you know, actually watching the moving parts, living and breathing, coming together, you know, everything from the financing to finding the right contractor. Really enlightening and enjoyed that.
01;14;44;04 - 01;14;46;08
Fred
You know, could someone.
01;14;46;10 - 01;15;00;14
Kwesi
I just gotta say, I mean, I'm glad, I'm glad you got that out of it. I, I encourage anyone if they're. I don't know if you're an Instagram guy, but if you go on my Instagram page, we posting kind of I wouldn't say daily, but quite a bit of updates in terms of where we're at with the process.
01;15;00;14 - 01;15;07;09
Kwesi
Like I'm really trying to chronologically like really go through the whole journey. So it'll be, interesting when it's all finished.
01;15;07;12 - 01;15;28;16
Fred
Right? It was really nice to have someone on that kind of wrapped it all up, you know, from the start to, you know, making the go no go decision to the process. Yeah. We're looking forward to having you back on. You can discuss when you gave your first tenant the first key. Yeah sure. Wonderful okay. So thank you listeners.
01;15;28;16 - 01;15;41;00
Fred
We've got a full slate of new and really enlightening podcasts for you for season five. Again, thank you for tuning in. And remember, if there are no problems.
01;15;41;02 - 01;15;51;15
Bernie
There are no opportunities. But that in there. Fred, you have somebody out there now that's, another source of information called the Property Wise Newsletter. How does that work?
01;15;51;17 - 01;16;20;13
Fred
Brilliant. Just visit our page, sign up. It's a free newsletter and it's it's issued every month. You'll garner all sorts of investment tips, all sorts of real estate insights, and you'll be directed to our latest podcasts and, some interesting projects and properties that we have on the market as well. No cost. Visit the website, sign up. You'll get it every month without fail.
01;16;20;15 - 01;16;29;01
Bernie
And reach Fred. It's info at gentryres.com. That's info at g and t r y at res.com.
01;16;29;03 - 01;16;34;24
Fred
Thank you listeners for tuning in once again. And remember, if there are no problems, there are no.
01;16;34;24 - 01;16;36;05
Bernie
Opportunities.
01;16;36;08 - 01;17;07;08
Intro voice
Thanks for listening to Fred and Bernie on another edition of The Property Wizard, brought to you by Creative Insight, helping you connect and gentry learning real estate professionals and educators. Got a question? Ready to invest? Email info at Gentry Racecourse. And if you'd like to find out more about the courses offered through Gentry Learning, visit Gentry learning.com. Remember to like and leave us a comment and subscribe to the show so you never miss an episode of the property Wizard.